In conversation with Lucy Dacus and Katie Gavin

With the release of her fourth solo album, Forever Is a Feeling, Lucy Dacus not only pulls back the curtain with newfound fervor — she ties it with a sash. It’s more than a peek at her internal world; it’s an invitation to enter, and revel in the romantic axis it’s been turning on, something she’s mirrored outside of the album bubble, recently disclosing her relationship with boygenius band member Julien Baker, a matter they’ve kept mum for some time. Between thick layers of twinkling harp and pillowy guitars to her no-holds-barred lyricism — the album offers a tender exploration of love that evolves, in real time, track by track, from trembling intimacy and yearning trepidation to raw, blissful confession. 

Read more: 8 essential queer anthems, picked by Agender

Dacus has long been known for her ability to turn personal moments into profound, poetic songwriting. Since her debut LP, 2016’s No Burden, the Virginia-born artist’s career has been an unbroken string of halcyon days — across three solo records, and her work as one-third of indie supergroup boygenius, her wit and soul-baring has seen commercial and critical success. The depth of Dacus’ work diverges from most — hers is a perspective that strays from the tired, psychoanalytical indie-rock path, finding its own course and speed in emotionally charged enigmatism. Her personal stories are painful, and resonant — anthems of love and loss, meditations on queerness, and nostalgic pullings at childhood threads. Each record is full of these tangible observations, though Dacus’ trademark lies in the existentialism and rich instrumentation they’ve been tangled in. 

In this exclusive video interview, Dacus is joined by MUNA’s Katie Gavin. Last year, Gavin, who will be accompanying Dacus on the Forever Is a Feeling tour, released her own debut solo album, the profound “Lilith Fair-core” What A Relief. The project also happened to ruminate on desire and romance — but Gavin’s tracklist wasn’t full of traditional love songs. Rather, she scrutinizes the obstacles of searching for connection. Not in spite of — but likely because of — the two friends and collaborators’ idiosyncratic ideas about the heart, their respect for each others’ work, thoughts, and opinions has become prized. 

For the cover shoot, we drew from an iconic moment in queer media — k.d. lang’s 1993 Vanity Fair cover with Cindy Crawford. lang was, and still is, a radical icon — with her own magnetic, musical interpretation of love. Against all odds, facing the backlash from Nashville’s country scene — and a picket line that ran outside the same Grammy ceremony where she won Best Female Pop Vocal Performance — lang, a masc lesbian, held her ground, and mainstream success soared. A revolutionary in her own right, she teased tropes of masculine and feminine roles, espoused gay rights, and embodied mold-breaking sensuality. Her cultural impact permeated media, in a manner far before its time — from the Crawford cover to featuring on a James Bond soundtrack, performing at the Olympics Opening Ceremony to appearing on the Portlandia finale. As much as we’d like to think times have changed, in 2025, artists who don’t dispel their queerness and break into the mainstream remain as radical as ever. On our April cover, Dacus and Gavin wanted to play with lesbian masc-femme archetypes, and ended up highlighting a moment that’s not only iconic but brings to light a musician whose musical integrity always came before any social statement. Also, it felt kismet — this particular image had been burning a hole on Dacus’ mood board, all the while living a double life as one of Gavin’s Raya photos.

On a cloudy day in LA, Dacus sat down with Gavin to discuss the creative process behind her new record, their relationship history — and the theory that “all things in life apply to sex.” Their conversation — which frequently dissolved into fits of giggles — offers an entertaining dive into two of indie music’s most compelling artists, as much as a pair of deeply loving friends.

KATIE GAVIN: OK, so our first question is how we met and when did we first hear each other’s music.

LUCY DACUS: When did we actually meet?

KATIE GAVIN: I went to Sugarfish with you.

LUCY DACUS: That’s the first time we hung out?

KATIE GAVIN: Yeah. I think we were just DMing.

LUCY DACUS: You’re done up a lot of the time, and you rolled up with a really long scarf and glasses.

KATIE GAVIN: You remember my outfit? That’s really cute.

LUCY DACUS: Of course babe. [Laughs.] Also, I was so obsessed with Sugarfish at the time. When did I hear your music though? I think my friend Hadley, who went to high school with you, introduced me.

KATIE GAVIN: Yes. Oh, my god. I’m trying to think of the first time I heard your music. I think I was in Nashville. I was doing songwriting sessions, and I was just talking to every songwriter about you. I think it was around the time that “Night Shift” was really popping off. I was listening to it all the time. I was staying by myself for 10 days in Nashville and writing songs.

LUCY DACUS: Did you write with Mitski during that?

KATIE GAVIN: Yeah, I did. Not fruitfully.

LUCY DACUS: What songs?

KATIE GAVIN: Well, she came to LA, and we worked on “No Idea” for the MUNA record.

LUCY DACUS: So good.

KATIE GAVIN: But when I wrote with her in Nashville, I just cried.

LUCY DACUS: That’s a good write, when you don’t actually write. You maybe cry or whatever. Also, Julien [Baker] and Phoebe [Bridgers] were superfans of you, and showing me everything. I think it was in 2018, like early boygenius days. They were just like, “This song, and then this song…”

KATIE GAVIN: So Phoebe hadn’t signed us yet then.

LUCY DACUS: She texted us, “I have the chance to sign them. Should I do it?” And we were like, “Your whole life depends on this.”

KATIE GAVIN: That’s interesting. “Should I do it?” [Lucy laughs.]

LUCY DACUS: No, she was bragging! It’s like, “Should I do it? This super-cute guy wants to take me to prom.”

KATIE GAVIN: “Should I go?” That’s so funny.

LUCY DACUS: No, but we were like, “Clearly this is what any sane person would do.”

KATIE GAVIN: That’s really cute. And then we toured together, with the boys and MUNA — and now we’re touring together.

LUCY DACUS: Now we’re touring together. 

KATIE GAVIN: I want to talk about your album. I got to listen to it this morning. It’s my favorite record of yours. I think it’s your best one yet. Which is such a huge fucking feat because it’s your fourth record. Do you know that?

LUCY DACUS: I think so. I like it the best. I think it’s my best one. I feel like I get closer and closer to [making] music I would listen to. 

KATIE GAVIN: And that’s really hard to do when there’s more and more eyes on you. How’d you do that?

LUCY DACUS: Painstakingly. I was writing a lot through boygenius, and then recorded some in Nashville.

KATIE GAVIN: You were writing on tour, while you were on cycle?

LUCY DACUS: Yeah. Do you write on tour?

KATIE GAVIN: Every once in a while. I was talking about this last night actually. We went to Elton John’s Oscar party last night — 

LUCY DACUS: We saw the Chappell Roan play. With Elton John.

KATIE GAVIN: With Elton John. And we were talking to Hozier about this, who’s on your record. I think I’ve written one or two actual songs on tour, but it doesn’t happen that much, because I am tired.

LUCY DACUS: I write a lot on tour because I’m always writing when I shouldn’t be. I feel like I usually write when it’s the mistress. I have to make it secret.

KATIE GAVIN: You said that to me when I was starting to do solo record stuff. I don’t know if actually you said it or if it was someone else.

LUCY DACUS: It was maybe me.

KATIE GAVIN: No, I know it came from you, but a lot of people that we’re friends with are also quoting you all the time.

LUCY DACUS: Are you serious? [Laughs.]

KATIE GAVIN: You know what I mean? So I don’t know if I actually heard it from you or if someone… I think it might’ve been Madison Cunningham quoting you.

LUCY DACUS: Amazing. Shoutout Madison Cunningham.

KATIE GAVIN: I was feeling weird about leaving MUNA for a period of time to do the solo project, but then it was like, “OK, well, when the solo project becomes my main squeeze, and I’m on cycle for that, then MUNA is gonna become the mistress, and it’ll be nice to be tempted to go back to that again.”

LUCY DACUS: The mistress will strengthen your marriage.

KATIE GAVIN: Yes, which is true. Always.

LUCY DACUS: Esther Perel says — actually, you sent me a podcast by Esther Perel. Great thinker and relationship therapist… Was it you? I’m now thinking that’s maybe not exactly your bag.

KATIE GAVIN: I don’t think I’ve ever gotten deep enough into a relationship to really need to pull out the Esther Perel. [Laughs.]

LUCY DACUS: What’s the longest relationship you’ve had?

KATIE GAVIN: Naomi [McPherson]. What about you?

LUCY DACUS: Seven years. Or approaching seven years.

KATIE GAVIN: You’re good at love. You’re good at love songs as well — there’s so many on this record. I’m not very good at love songs.

LUCY DACUS: What the hell are you talking about?

KATIE GAVIN: Name one love song that I’ve written.

LUCY DACUS: OK, horny songs. You’re good at desire. You’re good at yearning.

KATIE GAVIN: Love itself?

LUCY DACUS: Woof. [Laughs.] “It’s Gonna Be Okay, Baby” is kind of a love song! It’s not a romance love song.

KATIE GAVIN: After I listened to your record this morning, I was like, “I think this is more love songs than I’ve ever written in my life on one album.” It’s so beautiful. I talked about this a lot when I put out my record — I have that song “As Good As It Gets” that’s kind of just a breakup song I thought was a love song. But I was trying to write about having realistic expectations for what intimacy feels like. You really schooled me on that. There’s so much real intimacy on this record and things that make me laugh ’cause they’re so real, but it’s also blissed out and genuinely romantic. Can I tell you one of my favorite lines?

LUCY DACUS: Yes! This is so funny. We would’ve been doing this not on camera. I’ve been wanting your take.

KATIE GAVIN: “You’re smart, but you’re dumb at heart, and that’s a good start.” 

LUCY DACUS: I love that you thought about that one as a standout. No one has brought that one up to me.

KATIE GAVIN: I love that so much. That’s what I’m looking for — finding a smart person that you can be dumb with.

LUCY DACUS: Yes. That’s so sweet.

KATIE GAVIN: The production on that song is so fucking sick. Key changes…

LUCY DACUS: Thanks. It took so long… I had written Forever As A Feeling as a sentence, and then I never wrote the song around it because [I’m] lazy.

KATIE GAVIN: We’re both such lyric girlies. Does that happen to you a lot? You compile lines and then…

LUCY DACUS: Yeah, I have a note in my phone for each year, and it’s just all these lines. So I’ll go back sometimes if I’m trying to finish a song, and just scroll through 2022 and be like, “Anything fit?” Why kill your darlings if you can just let ’em sit in a cave for a while? Just let ’em age, get better or worse.

KATIE GAVIN: I think there’s something to that. I’ve started doing that more, but you have to be organized.

LUCY DACUS: I think songwriting has a lot to do with organization.

KATIE GAVIN: Hate to say it. Wait, but tell me how you wrote the song.

LUCY DACUS: [Laughs.] I basically stitched together a bunch of ideas. I had that idea at the beginning about knowing the shortcut to somewhere — the other person knowing the long, beautiful route — and not correcting them, so you can spend more time in the car.

KATIE GAVIN: I thought that was just about sex. No? Well, I perceived that in a horny way.

LUCY DACUS: Well, that’s good. That’s all I’ll say. That’s the other thing — sentiments about sex are applicable to life, and things about life are applicable to sex. But I just stitched it all together, and then love to repeat something eight times at the end of a song, just to hit it home.

KATIE GAVIN: I was thinking about this. I just read a Renee Gladman book for the first time. Have you ever read any of her stuff? She has this little book, My Lesbian Novel, I’ll give it to you.

LUCY DACUS: Oh, someone just gave me this.

KATIE GAVIN: This is like when you and E.R. [Fightmaster] sent me the same book!

LUCY DACUS: Oh, E.R. gave you Communism of Love also? E.R. bought this book for eight people, which I love about them. 

KATIE GAVIN: It’s so funny. So the Renee Gladman book, it’s a lesbian love story narrative, but it’s also interspersed with an interview between the author and a friend, about how she’s writing this story. She’s talking about how normally when she writes, she doesn’t like knowing what’s going to happen. I don’t know if this is true at all for you, but sometimes your songs feel like that to me. It’s like I’m on a walk with you, and it feels like you’re discovering where you’re going at the same time. In the song [“Come Out”], there’s a line [where] you’re like, “All the cities are the same. They have the coffee shop and this and that, and then they have this old couple that’s on a date, who’s not talking.” And then, you arrive at this very romantic sentiment that you’ve almost backed into, and it just sounds like you didn’t know where it was going. It felt so spontaneous.

LUCY DACUS: You’re so right.

KATIE GAVIN: Did you not know where you were going?

LUCY DACUS: I never do. I mean, that’s why I write.

KATIE GAVIN: Whoa. That’s so different than me.

LUCY DACUS: You know, it makes sense that you would know where you’re going, because it turns out so good.

KATIE GAVIN: No, but it’s also a main critique of my songs. I’ll be like, “Here’s the title, and it’s like this is the concept of the song.” Then it’s different metaphors that all reflect the same thing. It’s kind of Nashville, old-school songwriting. You’re through-composing and discovering stuff spontaneously.

LUCY DACUS: Yeah. I probably wrote that on a walk during tour — and a lot of times it is just what is happening. It’s more about the noticing than even being poetic or anything. I had a friend that listened to the record and said, “I can tell that you listen to rap because of how much the rhythms rhyme.” You know what I’m saying?

KATIE GAVIN: The in rhymes.

LUCY DACUS: There’s in rhymes that are in the words, but actually the cadence rhyming…

KATIE GAVIN: It’s working on levels y’all aren’t even aware of.

LUCY DACUS: But you are aware. You do this. I think it’s instinctual. I realized it recently because I was just doing it…Then I recently put words to it, which I hope doesn’t ruin it. Do you ever worry that if you say how you did the trick, you’ll never be able to do it again?

KATIE GAVIN: No.

LUCY DACUS: Well, I guess we’re different, but we’re in the same outfit.

Photography: Vivian Kim

Styling: Ashley Furnival

Makeup: Amber Dreadon

Hair: Caitlin Wronski

BTS: Jordan Lovelis

Editor-in-Chief: Anna Zanes

Content Editor: Neville Hardman

Lead Designer: Rob Ortenzi